17:05:56 <colindixon> #startmeeting release for lithium
17:05:56 <odl_meetbot> Meeting started Mon Sep 29 17:05:56 2014 UTC.  The chair is colindixon. Information about MeetBot at http://ci.openstack.org/meetbot.html.
17:05:56 <odl_meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
17:05:56 <odl_meetbot> The meeting name has been set to 'release_for_lithium'
17:06:08 <odl_meetbot> tykeal: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.  Use #endmeeting first.
17:06:14 <colindixon> #topic current release pipeline
17:06:20 <tykeal> :-/ why is it not working??
17:06:30 <colindixon> I started the meeting already :p
17:06:34 <colindixon> spelling it right
17:06:46 <tykeal> ah, that explains it
17:06:54 <tykeal> had a bit of lag
17:07:34 <colindixon> #info mlemay talks about how we currently do releases, all projects go through milestones at the same time, hitting the same things at the same dates
17:09:59 <colindixon> #info his point seems to be that inter-project dependencies mean that we really should have some delay between when the milestone for projects based on their dependency relationship
17:10:19 <colindixon> #info radical idea: no more simultaneous release
17:10:47 <colindixon> #info instead have gates, e.g., based on lack of bugs, code coverage, etc.
17:11:17 <colindixon> #info rovarga says that currently one big problem is that we have no visibility into project inter-dependencies
17:14:51 <colindixon> #info colindixon points out that this manifested as not being able to tell who meant to expose what APIs and who meant to consume what APis to track dependencies, reveal when APIs are deprecated, not yet stable, etc.
17:15:12 <colindixon> #info above was partially stealing from mlemay (not all colindixon)
17:17:48 <colindixon> #info goal is to fail early, catch CI failures faster for integration work
17:18:25 <colindixon> #info minor aside about docs and how to do docs, with lots of ideas, probably too much to cover here
17:20:40 <dfarrell07> #info colindixon talks about docs being managed like code
17:20:59 <dfarrell07> #info discussion about integration jobs, projects not knowing about them, therefore not doing them
17:21:39 <dfarrell07> #info tykeal suggests that we're not using our existing tools properly for int work
17:22:19 <dfarrell07> #info Need to rethink how we are using Jenkins, not used siloed Jenkins systems (via tykeal)
17:22:38 <dfarrell07> #info Silos are legicy issue, forced on tykeal before project even started
17:23:03 <colindixon> thanks for scribing dfarrell07
17:23:13 <dfarrell07> np colindixon :)
17:23:16 <dfarrell07> thanks for talking
17:23:36 <dfarrell07> #info colindixon points out that we may be jumpping into
17:23:47 <dfarrell07> #undo
17:24:10 <dfarrell07> #info colindixon points out that we may be jumpping into "things are broken and we need new tools" too quickly
17:25:12 <dfarrell07> #info colindixin talks about semantic buid versions "what was the last version (nightly, weekly) that passed these jobs"
17:26:04 <dfarrell07> #info Question put as "should we have integration testing on snapshots or not". Currently just need your tests to pass, int tests happen after the fact.
17:27:08 <colindixon> #info tangent on versions for a while
17:27:32 <dfarrell07> #info Tic-toc relase mentioned: Relase "core", relase "projects", iterate every few months. Issues with what is "core"
17:28:17 <dfarrell07> #info "Core" may mean base infra pieces
17:28:42 <dfarrell07> #info colindixion Is working on wiki fixes to doc relase plan
17:31:16 <dfarrell07> #info tangent on versions, running multiple versions at a time, discussion about this maybe being a bad idea
17:33:12 <dfarrell07> #info Need to be able to take X vendor ODL controller, Y vendor app, they run together via colindixon
17:34:56 <dfarrell07> #info Releases (tic-toc vs simul) may be very different for leaf projects vs other projects
17:35:31 * dfarrell07 "Sorry for horrible spelling, dyslexia"
17:37:07 <dfarrell07> #info Discussion about offsets between deadlines, tic-toc is similar to this, again may be importantly different between types of projects
17:38:18 <dfarrell07> #info rovarga talks about API freeze vs feature freeze, ordering of the two
17:40:09 <dfarrell07> #info colindixon points out that we are a very new project, these issues smell like a product of getting projects spun up on how all release things work
17:42:00 <dfarrell07> #info "Are there issues we think are fundi broken; which are ones that will are ghosts and will go away without hard work" colindixon
17:43:11 <dfarrell07> #info We're kinda already doing tic-toc, just on 6 month cadence. MD-SAL introduced last release, used more this relase.
17:43:48 <phrobb> #info colindixon notes that our problem in Helium on APIs is that this is the first time many APIs were used and relied on by the community (such as Yangtools and MD-SAL) apis.
17:44:22 <phrobb> #info noted that this kind of API evolution will probably occur for 3 or 4 more releases
17:44:51 <dfarrell07> #info If we have infra that is maybe-not-working, why are we buidling on top of it? Need to focus on infra projects. cdub
17:45:03 <phrobb> #info cdub asks why we are continuing to build out features with the foundation is not strong.
17:45:38 <dfarrell07> #info many +1s to cdub's "make foundation strong"
17:47:11 * dfarrell07 doesn't understand this tangent, phrobb?
17:47:46 <phrobb> #info colindixon asks "how many have lost sleep due to release?"
17:48:20 <dfarrell07> #info "what are the problems that caused us to loose sleep"
17:48:41 <dfarrell07> we hear you Ryan
17:50:36 <dfarrell07> #info seeking agreement on what the problems are, colindixon is
17:51:02 <dfarrell07> #info one issue is version, simul release, how we integrate rovarga
17:51:53 <dfarrell07> #info Rob A talks about relase vehicle being < getting solid foundation features
17:52:06 <dfarrell07> #info moving to Karaf was a poin point, many +1s
17:52:33 <dfarrell07> #info Ryan points out that it's not just moving to Karaf, it's moving to new *anything critical*
17:53:21 <dfarrell07> #info infra needs to come early in relase cycle, rovarga says (thinking about Karaf)
17:53:48 <dfarrell07> #info Infra needs to be agreed on at summit, 3-4 months in advance of release rovarga
17:54:20 <dfarrell07> #info "Karaf will be only relase vehicle" was only decided at least TSC call, Lori Jakab says
17:54:24 * dfarrell07 is yoda
17:55:20 <dfarrell07> #info phrobb points out that all of the above applies to docs, generally anything new, needs to be done early in cycle
17:55:34 <dfarrell07> #info many +1s to suffering from docs
17:56:26 <tykeal> #addchair dfarrell07
17:56:26 <dfarrell07> #info Docs that have been vetted by others and linked from somewhare sane before we even talk about a feature being "ready", colindixon
17:56:34 <tykeal> :-/
17:56:42 <dfarrell07> tykeal: omg, all of that didn't work?
17:57:01 <tykeal> no, it's working but for some reason the  bot is ignoring _me_ while I'm in channel
17:57:14 <regXboi> actually - if we are going to lock infra we should lock ALL of infra (that includes tooling)
17:57:24 <readams> don't say addchair it's just chair
17:57:38 <tykeal> ah, thanks, the admin (via the bot is addchair ;) )
17:57:51 <tykeal> #chair dfarrell07
17:57:51 <odl_meetbot> Current chairs: colindixon dfarrell07 tykeal
17:58:17 <dfarrell07> #info schedule is badly broken, all things that need to be in next relase signed on during last release, cdub says
18:00:01 <dfarrell07> #info maybe waisting effort for new, less critical, projects to require lots of "we're going to do this" docs, Rob A
18:00:19 <dfarrell07> #info cdub: end of release should be boring, should be moving to next release
18:01:49 * dfarrell07 not sure how to sum that last one up from rovagra
18:02:10 <regXboi> dfarrell07: can't help, I could hardly hear it
18:02:33 <rovarga> dfarrell07: we are trying to put infrastructure on a more aggressive release schedule
18:02:54 <rovarga> such that we deliver key pieces of yangtools and mdsal early in the release cycle
18:02:55 <dfarrell07> #info Incubaged projects vs stable/critical things need diff release cycles, foundation needs focus and to be a solid release
18:03:21 <dfarrell07> rovarga: #info that, if you'd like
18:03:35 * dfarrell07 is having trouble keeping up
18:03:46 <rovarga> what we need better handle on (and hope to getout of the design summit) is the direction infrastructure _users_ need us to do
18:03:48 * regXboi breaks for lunch
18:04:03 <rovarga> #info we are trying to put infrastructure on a more aggressive release schedule
18:04:03 * ChrisPriceAB mmm pizza
18:04:09 <rovarga> #info  such that we deliver key pieces of yangtools and mdsal early in the release cycle
18:04:12 <dfarrell07> #info "Release in expermentail once before can even be release in non-exp mode" colindixon
18:04:16 <rovarga> #info what we need better handle on (and hope to getout of the design summit) is the direction infrastructure _users_ need us to do
18:05:38 <dfarrell07> #info discussion about features vs projects vs more abstract "component"
18:05:58 <dfarrell07> #info and how the release discussion may be different between them
18:06:05 <dfarrell07> #info out of time
18:06:16 <dfarrell07> any last notes?
18:06:23 <dfarrell07> #endmeeting