18:06:10 <regXboi> #startmeeting discussion of Helium RVs
18:06:10 <odl_meetbot> Meeting started Thu Sep 11 18:06:10 2014 UTC.  The chair is regXboi. Information about MeetBot at http://ci.openstack.org/meetbot.html.
18:06:10 <odl_meetbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
18:06:10 <odl_meetbot> The meeting name has been set to 'discussion_of_helium_rvs'
18:06:38 <regXboi> #chair cdub, colindixon, phrobb
18:06:38 <odl_meetbot> Current chairs: cdub colindixon phrobb regXboi
18:06:49 <colindixon> #info this is an impromptu, informal, and non-binding discussion of Helium release vehicles
18:07:12 <regXboi> #info are Madhu and edwarnicke on the line?
18:07:24 <edwarnicke> #info edwarnicke
18:07:39 <rovarga> #info rovarga :)
18:07:46 <phrobb> #info phrobb
18:07:56 <regXboi> #info regXboi (as somebody who actually proposed He RVs :) )
18:08:16 <colindixon> #link https://meetings.opendaylight.org/opendaylight-meeting/2014/tsc/opendaylight-meeting-tsc.2014-07-31-16.59.log.html#l-132 minutes talking about release vehicles
18:08:22 <regXboi> #info there was a discussion of RV on 7/31
18:08:41 <regXboi> https://meetings.opendaylight.org/opendaylight-meeting/2014/tsc/opendaylight-meeting-tsc.2014-07-31-16.59.log.html#l-132
18:09:25 <regXboi> #link https://meetings.opendaylight.org/opendaylight-meeting/2014/tsc/opendaylight-meeting-tsc.2014-07-31-16.59.log.html
18:10:12 <regXboi> #info so the unofficial direction has been to use Karaf with an empty blank slate and load features on the fly
18:17:21 <colindixon> Effectively, the proposal for next week would be: There will be one Helium release vehicle: it will be the karaf distribution. Projects will be able to surface as many “top-level” features as they want, but it should stay within reason as things we thing users would actually want to install. Users will then be able to pick and choose among the “top-level” features to make their own distribution.
18:18:01 <colindixon> #topic technical details about a single karaf distribution
18:18:31 <colindixon> #info edwarnicke notes that currently integration produces a zip file with all the content to be able to activate *any* feature
18:18:59 <colindixon> #info which ones are made active at boot is determined by a single config file in that zip file
18:19:40 * tbachman has to step away for a bit
18:19:42 <CASP3R> this is the file /etc/org.apache.karaf.features.cfg
18:19:47 <tbachman> is this still being recorded?
18:20:07 <hideyuki> tbachman: I think yes.
18:20:09 <colindixon> #info as a consequence, it is *possible* to create a server-side script or page that lets users select features, changes the config file so that those features are made active at book (but keeps all the jars even for unselect features)
18:20:10 <cdub> tbachman: i dont' nkow, phrobb ?
18:20:11 <colindixon> tbachman: yes
18:20:16 <tbachman> thx!
18:20:18 <tbachman> :)
18:20:49 <colindixon> #undo
18:20:49 <odl_meetbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.ircmeeting.items.Info object at 0x26bffd0>
18:21:09 <colindixon> #info as a consequence, it is *possible* to create a server-side script or page that lets users select features, changes the config file so that those features are made active at boot (but keeps all the jars even for unselected features)
18:21:21 <phrobb> yes, this is being recorded.  doh
18:21:38 <colindixon> phrobb: oh, webex
18:21:40 <colindixon> *sigh*
18:21:45 <colindixon> can you truncate webex?
18:21:49 <cdub> actually it's good to get recorded, no?
18:21:53 <phrobb> with pain
18:22:12 <phrobb> yes, I think it's good, but it will be on the end of the TSC proper meeting
18:22:42 <phrobb> we would've needed to start another webex to separate the recordings
18:25:46 <colindixon> #info colindixon wants to have a script which takes (1) a list of features and (2) a zip file for a karaf distribution, then it changes the zip file to cause those features and only those features to be activated at boot.
18:26:28 <colindixon> #info that script could then be run by whatever UI you want, e.g., a common web interface that could be both local to reconfigure your downloaded zip and server-hosted to get a zip that has the defaults you’d want
18:26:43 <colindixon> #topic back to release vehicles (karaf vs.
18:27:05 <colindixon> #Info cdub wants to go over any of the issues with a pure-karaf release
18:27:35 <kwatsen> #info collindixon: the script 1) opens the zip, changes the config file (to activate said features), and then 3) re-zips the result - right?
18:27:37 <colindixon> #info cdub points out one is about testing, now we have ~2^f (for f features) combinations rather than 3
18:27:45 <colindixon> kwatsen: that was the idea
18:27:59 <colindixon> kwatsen: you can actually edit the zip in place with some cool libraries
18:28:41 <colindixon> #info kwatsen: that was my thinking yes (there are libraries that enable you to edit the contents of the zip in place as well, but that’s pretty deep in the weeds)
18:30:25 <kwatsen> #info the script could be run again and again too, each time reading in which features are active (none by default), producing a new zip that the script could run on again.   That point being is that only the config file changes, the zip file essentially never changes
18:31:35 <colindixon> #Info kwatsen that would be my choice, though it could have an option to produce a new zip file as well (why not?)
18:34:38 <dfarrell07> Eaisly getting a distro that supports ping-all sounds like a roll for a tutorial
18:34:46 <colindixon> #info edwarnicke says that some of the ~2^f is mitigated because karaf gets things loaded somewhat deterministically, which does away with a whole class of heisenbugs
18:34:50 <CASP3R> dfarrell07 +1
18:34:50 <colindixon> dfarrell07: +100
18:37:08 <phrobb> welcome back Madhu_offline
18:37:13 <dfarrell07> ^huzzah
18:38:02 <colindixon> #info the other question about pure karaf is, how will users migrate from the Hydrogen release vehicle that they liked?
18:38:14 <colindixon> #info the response is two parts: first, are there any such users?
18:38:52 <colindixon> #Info second, even if there are, can we produce the Hydrogen release vehicles with the Helium projects and code?
18:39:48 <cdub> colindixon: you capturing this?
18:40:01 <colindixon> #info Madhu returns and says he’s actually OK with a pure-karaf release, but his biggest worry is testing
18:40:25 <colindixon> #info his worry is that projects haven’t had enough time to test their project in the karaf distribution
18:40:28 <regXboi> um
18:40:32 <regXboi> isn't this out of scope?
18:40:43 <cdub> #link https://bugs.opendaylight.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1802
18:41:12 <dfarrell07> ^^Just beat me to it
18:42:55 <cdub> regXboi: i think the concern is iff we do karaf only and they aren't well-tested (e.g. projects haven't been doing karaf testing), then we are delivering untested code
18:43:11 <regXboi> I understand the concern
18:43:22 <regXboi> but I want to know what the alternative is
18:44:17 <regXboi> i.e. what's the alternative to doing karaf only?
18:45:10 <colindixon> #info edwarnicke and rovarga argue that this a specific bug, not an example of something wrong with karaf
18:45:25 <colindixon> #info Madhu_offline agrees with that, but said that this didn’t show up until karaf
18:47:36 <regXboi> #link https://lists.opendaylight.org/pipermail/openflowplugin-dev/2014-September/001967.html
18:48:02 <Madhu> #link https://lists.opendaylight.org/pipermail/openflowplugin-dev/2014-September/001967.html karaf specific configuration bundle clarifcation is needed
18:48:03 <Madhu> regXboi: thanks :)
18:48:04 <Madhu> good to double down on this
18:48:09 <colindixon> #info colindixon notes that there appears to be no data or evidence to support the fact that pure karaf is *more* bug prone than any alternative
18:48:18 <colindixon> #Info edwarnicke and regXboi agree there
18:49:02 <colindixon> #info cdub notes that karaf *has* turned a non-deterministic bug into a deterministic bug, which we may or may not be able to fix in the time-frame that we have
18:49:18 <colindixon> #info Madhu further notes that his worry is that this might befall other projects as well
18:50:10 * colindixon may have to wander off
18:50:23 <regXboi> can we pull this back to something actionable?
18:50:55 * regXboi will have to wander off as well
18:51:33 <regXboi> cdub: is your bottom line that we need more testing?
18:51:47 <regXboi> because I think that's what I'm hearing
18:51:49 <Madhu> regXboi: yes sir. every project must spend time on this
18:52:21 <cdub> regXboi: yes
18:53:06 <regXboi> ok, then I'd probaby argue that we should have the projects test the RCs thoroughly because of this
18:53:27 <cdub> regXboi: right, what testing coverage plan do we need
18:54:11 <regXboi> so I think we need to add the following test case after the "kitchen sink" case
18:54:37 <regXboi> which is the "take away all the things that break the kitchen sink" case and that gets run through it's paces
18:54:48 <regXboi> to see what integration issues get exposed
18:55:12 <regXboi> er *its paces* that is
18:56:04 <regXboi> and this last case is up to the projects I would think
18:57:45 <cdub> can we say...karaf feature file completion includes test?
18:59:36 <cdub> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TRYposNDFPaKcySlvwkOXvfR6Anx2EFujlIjoTthhRY/edit#gid=638121282https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TRYposNDFPaKcySlvwkOXvfR6Anx2EFujlIjoTthhRY/edit#gid=638121282
19:00:39 <regXboi> all: I need to wander away to my next meeting
19:00:53 * regXboi waves as he hangs up the phone...
19:01:04 <cdub> regXboi: bye, thanks for the extra hour
19:04:11 <colindixon> #undo
19:04:11 <odl_meetbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.ircmeeting.items.Link object at 0x275b910>
19:04:19 <colindixon> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TRYposNDFPaKcySlvwkOXvfR6Anx2EFujlIjoTthhRY/edit#gid=638121282 (this is the link cdub wanted)
19:06:31 <colindixon> #link https://wiki.opendaylight.org/view/Karaf:Step_by_Step_Guide this is the documentation to get your karaf feature in
19:06:38 <colindixon> #info that was for cdub above
19:08:27 <Madhu> #link https://wiki.opendaylight.org/view/Karaf:How_to_create_a_configfile_project_for_Karaf is the one :)
19:08:29 <dfarrell07> colindixon, cdub: +100 for meditation
19:09:53 * dfarrell07 rofls
19:10:36 <colindixon> #endmeeting