18:00:36 <frankbrockners> #startmeeting OPNFV meetings and communication tools
18:00:36 <collabot> Meeting started Thu Apr  2 18:00:36 2015 UTC.  The chair is frankbrockners. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:36 <collabot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:36 <collabot> The meeting name has been set to 'opnfv_meetings_and_communication_tools'
18:01:06 <frankbrockners> Could those of you attending the meeting info in?
18:01:13 <frankbrockners> #info Frank Brockners
18:03:15 <cdub> #info Chris Wright
18:03:27 <iben> hello
18:03:37 * frankbrockners Iben could you info in?
18:03:39 <cdub> iben: hey!
18:03:46 <iben> #info Iben Rodriguez
18:03:53 <frankbrockners> #chair iben cdub
18:03:53 <collabot> Current chairs: cdub frankbrockners iben
18:04:08 * frankbrockners so far just the three of us...
18:04:21 * frankbrockners let's wait one more min and get started
18:04:25 <iben> can we jsut chat a bit or do we need formal agenda and such?
18:04:32 <frankbrockners> sure
18:04:43 <frankbrockners> here are a few topics we could chat about
18:04:55 <iben> i saw from the email
18:04:56 <frankbrockners> #info Agree on problem statement (could include (1) “too many meetings with audio”, (2) “meeting overlaps: lack of GTM resources”, (3) “meeting recordings large, hard to handle, no obvious place to store”, (4) “audio issues in large meetings (echo etc.)”)
18:05:06 <frankbrockners> #info Review/gather what other communities do
18:05:23 <frankbrockners> #info Distill solution approaches and create a recommendation  for the TSC
18:05:28 <frankbrockners> anything else?
18:05:40 <iben> yes - good - so - with that said - I wanted to share the research I’ve already done - okay?
18:06:07 <frankbrockners> that would be good - so should we switch to that topic first? let's do this
18:06:14 <frankbrockners> #topic Review/gather what other communities do
18:06:25 <frankbrockners> iben - over to you
18:06:48 <iben> #link https://wiki.opnfv.org/meetings#background_info
18:07:11 <iben> #info what is being done with the OpenStack Meetings page #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings
18:07:33 <iben> #info As another reference point here is the OpenDaylight Meeting Page also in text (not table) format. #link https://wiki.opendaylight.org/view/Meetings
18:07:59 <cdub> add too many meetings
18:08:01 <cdub> period
18:08:16 <cdub> synchronous communication is extremely expensive
18:08:20 <iben> that is all I have - i would suggest we look at these other 2 larger more mature communities and see what they a have done and what we like/don’t like and make some recommendations based on that
18:08:33 <iben> +1 cdub
18:08:45 <frankbrockners> and another +1 cdub
18:08:55 <frankbrockners> #info synchronous communication is extremely expensive
18:09:00 <cdub> cool, are we tracking the problem statement?
18:09:09 <cdub> stements
18:09:13 <frankbrockners> we can change topic
18:09:16 <cdub> ok
18:09:27 <frankbrockners> #topic problem statement
18:09:34 <cdub> lol, i am finding myself speaking the words i'm typing in irc
18:09:40 <cdub> *sigh* too many audio mtgs
18:10:02 <frankbrockners> too many audio meetings that one has to attend
18:10:18 <frankbrockners> and many of them start to even overlap now
18:10:34 <frankbrockners> and in many cases audio quality is even poor
18:11:03 <frankbrockners> question: do we believe we can move to IRC as a default - like ostack?
18:11:31 <cdub> well, it's a big cultural shift
18:12:10 <frankbrockners> apart from too many meetings and the need for synchronous interaction - what other issues do you guys see?
18:12:26 <cdub> frankbrockners: that's the main thing
18:12:36 <cdub> it's inter-related
18:12:40 <cdub> w/ siloed work
18:12:51 <frankbrockners> cdub: then let's just focus on this issue as the prime one
18:12:52 <cdub> so a group meets, it's a bit exclusive, creates a silo
18:13:11 <cdub> a groups shares on public list, people chime in as they can...more inclusive
18:13:14 <cdub> *nod*
18:13:18 <frankbrockners> #info key issue:  too many meetings that one has to attend and the need for synchronous interaction
18:14:05 <iben> maybe we’re saying the say thing -
18:14:09 <iben> my view
18:14:20 <frankbrockners> #info consequence is: audio meetings create silos and exclusiveness
18:14:25 <iben> when we have audio meetings there is no easily searchable record
18:14:35 <frankbrockners> +1 iben
18:14:40 <iben> i like IRC meetings because even if you weren’t there
18:14:44 <frankbrockners> the notes of audio meetings are poor
18:14:47 <iben> and sometimes even if you were
18:14:56 <iben> you can go back and see what happened
18:15:32 <frankbrockners> #info audio meetings usually only have a poor record (listening to recordings - if available at all - is time consuming), meeting minutes are sparse
18:15:32 <iben> one thign to note is the personality types and working habits of the people invovled
18:15:43 <iben> if you spend your day infront of a keybaord using IRC is easy
18:15:57 <frankbrockners> #info IRC meetings automatically create a good record
18:16:09 <iben> but you are on your feet and in front of people all day as in many corporate environments IRC is
18:16:12 <iben> hum
18:16:17 <iben> how shall we say it...?
18:16:27 <cdub> inconvenient
18:16:31 <cdub> ?
18:16:33 <iben> some poeple don’t work well with IRC type chats
18:16:39 <frankbrockners> #info IRC is only friendly to people whose working habits are to be in front of a keyboard
18:16:59 <cdub> iben: true, it's a cultural shift, and it's a tool that works well for most developers
18:17:16 <cdub> but not for all
18:17:19 <frankbrockners> the other issue is global IRC availability
18:17:22 <iben> yes
18:17:33 <cdub> frankbrockners: as in port blocked?
18:17:37 <frankbrockners> the great wall blocks IRC
18:17:38 <iben> on the airplane I can participate in IRC - but not even skype would work
18:17:39 <frankbrockners> yes
18:17:53 <iben> I spend up to 8 hours a week in the air
18:18:00 <iben> this is time to be productive on IRC
18:18:11 <cdub> we have similar kind of issue w/ webex and others
18:18:19 <iben> and email works there too
18:18:26 <cdub> iben: +1
18:18:33 <iben> but web pages don’t load well
18:18:40 <frankbrockners> iben, cdub +1
18:18:59 <cdub> so, perhaps we start by simply suggesting that a project shouldn't simply presume it needs a weekly meeting because the project merely exists
18:19:02 <cdub> _and_
18:19:04 <frankbrockners> the culture in OPNFV so far isn't very text oriented
18:19:17 <cdub> if it does create a meeting, we should prefer IRC
18:19:21 <iben> irc is a different work flow - if I miss a meeting for whatever reson - we can go review the entire session and still contribute after the fact
18:20:02 <iben> irc and text chat work well for the facebook devops style of projects where we are encouraged to fail often and fail fast
18:20:08 <frankbrockners> so sounds like we're moving to suggested solutions
18:20:11 <cdub> the pattern i see is people tending to put off work until the meeting, which kills productivity and collaboration
18:20:32 <cdub> so suggest fewer meetings, irc meetings and more email collaboration?
18:20:32 <frankbrockners> but how do we overcome the cultural barrier here?
18:20:44 <iben> by reviewing the suggested solution we can discover the problem statement more clearly
18:20:48 <frankbrockners> all of us seem to be trending towards using IRC as default
18:20:53 <cdub> we tried a half-step of audio + irc
18:21:07 <iben> i think the culture will change over time
18:21:10 <frankbrockners> but many folks in OPNFV speak up on audio calls - but you even hardly ever see an email from them
18:21:22 <iben> i will try to lead the functest team and others to an “irc only” format
18:21:25 <iben> not i
18:21:26 <iben> we
18:21:31 <iben> we should encourage
18:21:41 <frankbrockners> but IRC plus audio still keeps synchronous
18:21:48 <iben> we can get consensus from the overseas teams too
18:21:58 <cdub> right, i'm thiinking it's a enabler/crutch that isn't helping shift the culture
18:22:08 <iben> we can’t do audio at all as things will get lost
18:22:14 <frankbrockners> I'm overseas :-)
18:22:35 <iben> i was being PC for the places where certain sites are blocked
18:23:05 <frankbrockners> what would be the solution for those places?
18:23:11 <iben> if the cost of irccloud is too bad we can sponsor people
18:23:24 <iben> or setup an alternative IRC proxy solution
18:23:35 <frankbrockners> I'm not even sure whether you can get to irccloud in China
18:23:52 <iben> i know Bryan at ATT is not “allowed” to use IRC due to corporate firewall policies
18:24:01 <cdub> we had our infra folks saying they can run proxy
18:24:01 <iben> but we can access irccloud website from there
18:24:17 <frankbrockners> anyone know of a free IRC-web tool that LF could host (irccloud like)?
18:24:33 <iben> lmgtfy
18:25:40 <cdub> i was thinking of a proxy.  so irc.opnfv.org on port 80 is proxy.  prolly breaks dcc, but we don't use that
18:27:00 <frankbrockners> or we'd do something like webchat.opnfv.org - which would proxy to freenode
18:27:15 <cdub> *nod*
18:27:18 <iben> +1
18:27:50 <frankbrockners> #topic solution approaches
18:28:14 <frankbrockners> #info try IRC as default for meetings (no audio)
18:29:01 <cdub> heh, i like the topic
18:29:13 <frankbrockners> #info for countries that have difficulty accessing IRC, offer a OPNFV hosted proxy (a la webchat.opnfv.org - which would proxy to freenode) and check whether irccloud would be an alternative for those folks
18:29:31 <frankbrockners> anything else we could info in?
18:29:51 <iben> this is not mandatory - just a suggestions
18:29:54 <cdub> i think solution is 1) fewer meetings (request each meeting owner to clarify _why_ they _need_ a meeting)
18:30:00 <cdub> 2) irc...
18:30:03 <iben> and we have a few teams willing to start this now???
18:30:14 <frankbrockners> #info all of the above are just suggestions
18:30:26 <cdub> because even w/ irc, we have the sync issue, and the issue of TZ and all meetings falling into a narrow time window each day
18:30:27 <frankbrockners> #info key is  fewer meetings (request each meeting owner to clarify _why_ they _need_ a meeting)
18:30:47 <frankbrockners> cdub +1
18:31:04 <frankbrockners> and it is timeslot which is already overcowded for me
18:31:09 <frankbrockners> overcrowded
18:31:11 * cdub too
18:31:33 <iben> that is related issue - thus the research link I pasted above
18:31:42 <iben> look at how OpenStack meetings are done
18:32:01 <iben> there are 3 meeting channels on IRC and teams have to find an openslot on one of those 3 channels
18:32:03 <cdub> they do two things
18:32:12 <cdub> spread across channels (-alt -alt2, etc)
18:32:36 <cdub> and in some cases, switch times weekly to accomodate wider geo
18:32:39 <cdub> latter is tough
18:33:20 <frankbrockners> ok - we're at the bottom of the hr...
18:33:33 <iben> yes
18:33:41 <iben> that’s a good one I forgot about
18:33:41 <frankbrockners> anything else we should cover - I think we have a suggestion for the TSC.
18:33:49 <iben> they have team rotate odd and even weeks
18:33:56 <iben> so there are 2 benefits there.
18:33:59 <iben> 2 week sprints
18:34:00 <frankbrockners> nice idea
18:34:11 <iben> and double the number of good meeting timezones
18:34:41 <cdub> frankbrockners: i think we're good.  although i also think we are preaching to the converted here
18:34:49 <cdub> frankbrockners: challenge is converting the rest of community
18:35:18 <frankbrockners> cdub: I agree. Folks who are "audio only" probably didn't even attend this meeting...
18:35:33 <frankbrockners> or "dare to attend"
18:35:40 <cdub> btw, irc meeting, meetbot goes w/out saying (but we could make it clear that it's a great resource)
18:35:47 <iben> we can have status update meetings for them
18:36:02 <iben> or use the tsc ?
18:36:11 <frankbrockners> yes  - this is tsc
18:36:43 <frankbrockners> that might also shorten tsc calls - less debate in the tsc call - more prep in advance
18:37:48 <frankbrockners> ok - I think we have a suggestion for the TSC. Let's see what others think. Starting with a few projects is probably the right thing. I can also move BGS to IRC only.
18:37:59 <frankbrockners> any closing thoughts?
18:38:22 <cdub> i'm good
18:38:25 <cdub> thanks frankbrockners and iben
18:38:28 <frankbrockners> thanks guys!
18:38:39 <iben> yup!
18:38:41 <frankbrockners> #endmeeting